00:06:55 - How to distinguish a change leader from other leadership roles?
00:12:20 - How do I transform my competency as a Change Leader?
00:19:33 - How does organisational culture impact the ability of a leader to drive and implement change?
00:27:00 - How can a change leader measure the success of a change initiative?
00:34:19 - Who exactly is a change leader, and why is this role important in organisations?
00:37:30 - What qualifications are essential to being an effective Change Leader or Agent?
00:46:50 - I presume in large companies (or companies that recognise the value) this can be a specific role; have you all worked as dedicated change managers/leaders?
hello everyone and welcome to episode 198 of level up your career 60 Minutes
00:00:47
of live Q&A where your questions Drive the show I'm Chenise Mitchell Cox and
00:00:52
I'm your host today so I am delighted to welcome and introduce you to the show
0:58
today if you are watching watching on YouTube you can find out more about what we do over on our channel so please head
1:05
over to YouTube and give this video a like And subscribe to find out more my colleague Ella is online in the
1:13
chat to welcome you so please let her know your name and the city you are joining from so we can get to know you
1:20
today Ella will post a link into the comments so you can vote up the questions that you would like answered
1:26
the most and of course for you to add your own which you can do throughout the show if your question is selected your
1:34
name will appear in the credits at the end of the show so get yours in early and stay with us to see that
1:41
happen our topic for today's show is how to become a change leader the role of a
1:47
change leader in the transformation process embodies the art of mentorship the skill of facilitation and the
1:53
passion of advocacy to steer teams and stakeholders Through the Ever evolving
1:59
landscape of a option change leaders Empower individuals to embrace change
2:04
and help Foster the breakdown of organizational barriers so how do you
Meet the Panelists
2:10
become a change leader to help you answer your questions we've got our expert panel so let's jump over and meet
2:18
them firstly joining us on today's panel is Robert Schneider Robert's 30-year
2:24
career includes roles as a developer database administrator project manager
2:30
change manager and sales enablement he is under PMP and agile
2:35
certifications he is currently a solopreneur formulating and proposing what you should do to combat vuka and
2:43
succeed software Centric hybrid methodologies thank you for joining us today
2:49
Robert I'm delighted to be here Chenise for such a far reaching impactful topic
2:55
so delighted to be here with my fellow panelists it's always fun wonderful to have you on the show so thanks so much
3:02
for coming back and secondly I am delighted to welcome back Lori Bowman
3:08
Lori has over 30 years experience in engineering and management roles on complex multi-discipline engineering and
3:15
construction projects Lor is a trainer and adviser on planning Assurance risk
3:20
management and control for projects programs and portfolios thank you for joining us today
3:28
Lori thank you very much really good to be here Chenise on what is a a wonderful topic so very much looking forward to
3:34
today's session thank you so much and our third panelist today is Bev Andrews
3:40
Bev is an experienced change management specialist who has devoted the past 20 years of her career to develop to
3:47
delivering Business Solutions across a broad range of services it's wonderful
3:53
to have you here Bev thanks for coming back on the show thanks Jan and welcome to the
3:59
panelists and to all of our listeners I'm I'm sure we're going to get some amazing uh questions
4:05
tonight absolutely thank you so much for coming back and joining us today to share his expert knowledge is returning
4:12
panelist Mark Rovers as the president at interprom Mark focuses on leadership
4:18
coaching with his team of Consultants working in both the US and Europe a
4:23
strong believer in giving back Mark has set up and facilitated a wide range of professional communities
4:30
welcome back to level up Mark thank you Chenise thank you apmg
4:35
for having me I thought that us going with a a quote maybe to set us in a
4:41
right mindset uh was from John Quincy Adams who once said if your actions Inspire others to dream more learn more
4:50
do more and become more you are a leader wonderful quote I always look
4:55
forward to your quotes Mark so thank you so much and our next next expert panelist for today is Natalia Keno
5:03
Natalia is a success driven transformation leader brmp and a business resilient accredited trainer
5:11
with over 20 years experience of international um experience within the Aerospace Telecom Finance business
5:19
Consulting hospitality and Retail sectors welcome to level up Natalia it's
5:25
wonderful to have you here thank you Shanice it's a privilege to share um to be able to share my
5:32
experience and Inspire others to become change leaders resilient change leaders
5:38
because I believe it's the way to go so happy to share and Inspire here thank
5:44
you so much and it is a pleasure to have you on the show today and completing our panel today is Jessica Crow Jessica is
5:51
an expert in change management and organ organizational Effectiveness in 2019 she
5:57
founded apology ay sorry a change management training coaching and
6:02
Consulting service firm and is current the current host of a change leader Insight podcast Jessica has taught
6:10
coached managed and mentored Professionals for nearly two decades it's wonderful to have you on the show
6:16
today thank you for joining thank you Chenise I'm so happy to be here with the rest of the
6:21
panelists thank you to everyone who is tuned in this is a topic that is near and dear to my heart being an effective
6:27
change leader so I'm really excited for the conversation today wonderful thank you so much for coming today and finally
6:35
we have our Question Master who is Adriana Santana and is joining us from the beautiful city of London how are you
6:42
today Adriana hi shenise I'm really good it's been quite unexpected uh being here as
6:48
qm today but I'm really excited it's always lovely having you as qm and on that note shall we take our first
How to distinguish a change leader from other leadership roles?
6:56
question of course so our first first question comes from Leo KO and he wants
7:02
to know how to distinguish a chain leader from other leadership roles oh what a great question Leon
7:10
thank you so much for being the first one as well and who would like to answer this today we shall go to Lori and then
7:23
Robert H thank you for the great opening question Leon this is a a really good
7:28
place to start so firstly that they're not entirely separate but leadership people leaders in all
7:35
sorts of domains in sporting fields in technical Fields you know it might be
7:41
you know specialist knowledge in a particular area what's unique about a change leader is that they're really
7:47
able to focus on those human factors to be able to empathize with people and
7:52
help them transition from one state to another state so it's really that human side that distinguishes change leaders
8:00
wonderful thank you so much and Robert if we could have your insights please I'll piggy back on Lor's two
8:07
references to empathy and people if I contrast uh a conventional role of a
8:13
change leader they may have colleagues who focus on process or technology uh you might have a a sponsor
8:20
a project manager or an Enterprise architect and they're emphasizing other things across the team across
8:26
stakeholders and I think a change leader is going to emphasize more empathy and
8:32
people Readiness um and minimizing the communication voids across uh across the
8:38
the stakeholder population wonderful thank you so much and Bev if you could jump in
8:45
now yeah certainly um my first thoughts um and and it's great to hear from our
8:51
panelists with our our diverse um views my first thought was very much around um
8:58
uh change leadership is part of everything that we do and and every role that we take so when we want to say we
9:06
want to distinguish the differences I think we are very much looking at the competencies and the um the elements of
9:14
people leadership um and being very conscious that you know we're dealing
9:20
with individuals and and human emotions and um a lot of factors that are not necessarily at the surface so it is very
9:27
it is those those very um um soft skills
9:33
which is I don't like that terminology but those professional skills where you need to be listening you need to be
9:38
engaged you need to be present um you need to be thoughtful and kind um and
9:45
encourage encouraging people is very much um it's very important but you know my my belief is that we're all leaders
9:51
and um leading change is something that that leaders do no matter what format that you might see that in wonderful
9:58
thank you so so much and Jessica if you could jump in now yeah I completely
10:03
agree with Bev I I like to refer to them as power skills versus soft skills so um
10:09
just kind of piggybacking on what you said anyone who is in a position to be leading people or projects has the
10:15
potential to be a change leader but what sets this role apart is that compassion and empathy that everyone has talked
10:21
about and at the same time I like to think of the role of the change leader it can be a discret role so I think
10:27
about change management something you do change leader is who you are now whether you have change management change
10:34
leadership as a dedicated role that's one aspect but anyone who is leading people in projects um has that potential
10:41
to Be an Effective change leader wonderful thank you so much and Natalia if you can finish us off on this
10:46
question yes thank you and to add to it to become a effective change leader in
10:52
any role H it's also a key to adopt an agile or growth mindset where we don't
10:59
stick to the traditional way of doing things but rather be open-minded adopt
11:04
adaptable agile and of course uh empathetic and uh and lead by observing
11:12
and by by continuously adapting the way of doing so really avoiding at any cost
11:18
traditional approach and sticking to what I know best but rather being curious so that's so very important
11:26
wonderful thank you so thank you so much and Mar if you would like to jump in
11:31
that would be fantastic yeah maybe a little bit provocative but um I wouldn't call
11:38
myself a leader if I'm not able to be a change leader um I know that's kind of out there um I think any leader if you
11:45
are a leader you know should you should be able to help people to get from a now to a new I mean Henry ginger once said
11:53
the task of the leader is to get his or her people from where they are to where they have have not been um I mean
12:02
there's there's many of those uh you know wisdoms out there as in that's just part of what you do as a as a leader
12:09
help people through change wonderful great perspective there thank you so much Mark and Adriana shall
12:16
we take our next question of course is so we have our
How do I transform my competency as a Change Leader?
12:21
first Live question and it comes from sarid and he wants to know how do I
12:26
transform my competency as a chain later oo this is a great question from
12:32
sabage thank you so much for entering this and we will go to Natalia and Jessica
12:40
first thank you so to transform a competency as a change leader it's key
12:45
to adopt a a purposeful mindset so really creating a sense of individual
12:51
self-worth for yourself but also for for your for the teams uh that change that
12:57
the leader uh is is working with and really continuously identifying
13:02
opportunities for personal development H in terms of overall capabilities and
13:08
skills uh both uh both uh soft skills as we say and the technical skills that
13:16
require uh continuous knowledge and adoption to make that impactful change
13:23
so I believe that would be helpful wonderful that was a great answer thank you so much and Jessica do you want to
13:30
jump in sure that was very well said I agree with that I think in order to
13:36
transform your competency it does start with a self assessment of what role you're currently in today and then what
13:42
role you want to be in and then thinking about what skills do I need to get to that next step is it leadership skills
13:49
is those softer power skills is it technical skills understanding what the
13:55
requirements are for the work you're going to be taking on and how you can help people through that process so um I
14:00
think it's kind of a two-factor thing start with that self assessment and then figure out where you want to go and what skills you need absolutely thank you so
14:08
much and Lori would you like to jump in and provide some
14:13
answers yeah firstly I agree with our other panelists wholeheartedly I guess what one element I would add is find
14:21
yourself a a mentor somebody who's already ex succeeding in this space for
14:27
me my first I guess real Le in change management was dealing with a an
14:32
organizational psychologist who was an expert he'd been doing this for a long time he really helped me transform gave
14:38
me a whole lot of different tools and techniques that I could use to be more effective absolutely thank you so much
14:44
and uh Beth um the thing that came to my mind
14:50
um following on from from some of the comments is um the self assessments a really great start but gather some
14:57
feedback from um from people that you respect and um and um ask them you know
15:05
what are some of the attributes that you display quite naturally um so that you've got that binge mark because we
15:11
quite often when we think about our own skills and capabilities we we're quite hard on ourselves and we don't
15:16
necessarily recognize what we might have done well um and then we can sort of probe into some of the things around
15:23
what what could I improve on and what could I do differently and and how can I stretch myself um so I would suggest
15:29
that as two two points and and then as the third one think about um where you
15:34
are and and who you've got around you that you think is a great role model from a leadership perspective and is
15:40
that the type of skill set um and the way that they demonstrate leadership that you want to then be able to um uh
15:47
to grow into um because you want to make sure that as you're transforming your
15:52
skills and building your skills that you keep true to to your natural um approach and personality and and language you
16:00
know because being a a change leader is very much about being authentic so you know you don't want to take on others
16:07
language if it's not the type of language that you might use in day-to-day life um but I think that's
16:12
you know there there's some very simple starting points and getting feedback and role modeling or or observing others
16:19
that you sort of go like yeah I like their style you know and I think I could comfortably grow into that type of style
16:26
myself is is um ALS so another starting point some great advice thank you so
16:32
much and Mart if you would like to jump in and provide some answers most certainly and thank you
16:38
sarajit um who's frequent Bist on the show and I I almost was thinking he knows the ANS but either way he's uh
16:46
also a great Giver so thank you Shaz uh building on be's answer it's indeed that
16:51
um being authentic comes also with earning their trust um earning trust
16:57
leads me to be and become a good coach uh coach guide people uh Empower people
17:04
encourage them um in other words be that person go-to person or become that go-to
17:10
person as a change leader that people you know people go through change they feel uncertain they feel uneasy if they
17:17
know that you're there the one to guide them I think that would be a good comp compeny to have uh being a good coach
17:24
that has earned the trust absolutely there's nothing more uh relieving than
17:30
feeling safe when you're going through uncertain times so great great advice there m thank you and Robert if you
17:37
wouldd like to jump in I'll spring off Saget's reference to
17:43
transform um I believe that many projects many teams fall into a couple
17:50
different cliches there's a pattern in the problems when Innovation work gets into trouble and one of the cliches is
17:57
that Lessons Learned don't find their way back into the next project so uh I
18:02
believe that to avoid being that cliche that change leaders it it they can
18:09
distinguish themselves by uh through context
18:14
sensitivity and there are Global Frameworks and lessons and and those are great but to be hyper attentive to your
18:21
team it's recent past it's recent Lessons Learned I think that can really
18:26
build personal compet as well as organizational competency to avoid falling in and being one of the
18:33
cliches of struggling or mediocre mediocre projects absolutely that's
18:39
fantastic advice thank you so much and Jessica did you want to jump in and add something else I did I just excuse me
18:46
had one more thought and I love what Robert you just said about doing that reflection and Lessons Learned and making sure sure those were Incorporated
18:53
but Mark brought up being uh being someone that you can coach others and sometimes we need to be coached so sometimes we
19:01
need to hire or work with an executive coach some sort of Coach to give us that feedback and that is a role that is
19:07
different than a mentor or a boss and it can be very powerful in taking us from where we are today to where we want to
19:14
be in the future so sometimes getting formal coaching ourselves is a great way to transform our competency as a change
19:19
leader absolutely that's a great uh advice there so thank you so much panelist subject we hope that that's uh
19:26
helped you answer your question and Adriana can we have our next question please sure shenise so the next question
How does organisational culture impact the ability of a leader to drive and implement change?
19:35
comes from William and he wants to know how does organizational culture impact
19:40
the ability of a leader to drive and Implement change oh what a fantastic question
19:46
William thank you so much we'll go to mark first and then
19:51
Lori I'm going to build off something that the brm in business relationship Management Institute has put forward and
19:58
and focus on a culture of strong collaboration with strong relationships
20:04
healthy relationships mature relationships between uh people because research has shown that uh organizations
20:11
where the relationships are strong between people have a much easier job so
20:17
to speak dealing with the amount of change the rate of change in other words
20:22
um that could be the secret source for many change leaders to um focus on uh
20:28
getting great relationships going in an organization uh since that seems to help
20:33
dealing with a lot of changes wonderful thank you so much and
20:40
Lori H yes I I agree so how does the organizational culture impact it's it's
20:46
really the foundation that everything is is built from the organizational culture so certainly um it's a good place to
20:53
start if you're looking to implement changes to actually start by exploring and understanding culture itself so you
20:59
really want a culture that um is open is supportive um creates an environment of
21:05
psychological safety and if you can combine that psychological safety with
21:11
accountability you're likely to have a learning organization an organization that can adapt that can change to to
21:17
most situations that's powerful thank you so much and Natalia if you'd like to answer yes yes
21:25
to add to it so really successful change lead ERS uh need to take the time to understand the culture of the
21:31
organization and its and leverage its strengths and uh and in the change
21:37
process always uh ensure the diversity of thinking uh on the back involving
21:43
different backgrounds experiences and Knowledge and Skills of various contributors and stakeholders of the
21:50
change and it also helps a lot to maximize the the CH the outcome and
21:55
deliver the change expected thank you so much and
22:01
Robert I think that a culture of two-way
22:06
accountability makes it easier to drive and Implement change a culture of one-way accountability makes change more
22:14
difficult High discipline culture of high discipline and high empathy makes it easier to drive and Implement change
22:22
a culture of low discipline low empathy complicates change and um my final plug
22:28
would be for improvisation skills I love how improv teaches the phrase I got your
22:34
back improvisational uh practitioners will start meetings where they turn toward
22:40
each other literally physically tap each other on the shoulder and say I got your back um because that's it's a
22:48
confrontation with a culture of watch your back that is psychologically unsafe
22:53
so I just want to make a plug for improv skills and and how it's a commitment to
22:59
each other's success fantastic thank you so much and um let's move on to
23:08
Jessica yes great answers uh and responses so far um you know when I
23:13
think about culture there's a saying culture eats strategy for breakfast and that's entirely true you know you think
23:19
about an organization will have its goals and objectives and then each team will have its goals and objectives which
23:25
means teams and business functions are often operating in silos and if the
23:30
leaders of those business functions we talked about relationships quite a few times don't have strong relationships
23:37
High trust High discipline High empathy that's where the conflicts and collisions happen and the willingness to
23:43
support changes that are being driven from the different function so in order for Change and Innovation to happen
23:50
smoothly and successfully there has to be strong relationships across teams and an awareness and respect for the
23:56
different goals and objectives Ives of each business unit and how it all aligns with the bigger picture wonderful thank
24:03
you so much and Bev do you want to finish us off on this question yeah I I was just going to um
24:09
talk a little bit more around um you know there's a lot of of information on
24:16
what um sets a really good culture and you know an environment for change um
24:22
but you do need to really ensure you understand how that um how that culture
24:29
is going to work for or against you um you know we know that we get better results if we're collaborating and
24:34
co-designing and and we're bringing the human element into our work but some
24:40
organizational um environments just don't enable that to happen and that
24:45
could be through Legacy and history it could actually be the fact that it's um
24:51
quite an old style machine type of um environment it could be just
24:58
you know just the pace of change and the things that are happening um right now um or it could be the fact that the
25:04
organization is on a journey to try and and you know make a improve and build a
25:10
really new vibrant culture so as a change leader you do need to assess
25:17
where the organization is you do need to ask some questions around well you know what you give us an example of a really
25:23
good change that's happened here recently and and why was it good and and and and was the result and what wasn't
25:29
such a great change that happened here and why and what was the result and is it Lessons Learned but it's giving you a
25:35
sense of how things get done here you know what what are the the the things that you might just have to chip away at
25:42
you're not going to get a quick win um and what are some of the things that are just not going to work right now because
25:49
not everybody is going to come into a a room and and be very vulnerable and and
25:54
open up um so just finding the Cadence the balance of where the the
26:00
organization is and where it's come from so that you can actually pick the right skills the right time um and and the
26:07
right Cadence to to start to try and shift and drive some of those changes
26:13
wonderful thank you so much fantastic answers panelist and William we hope you enjoyed th those answers we're just
26:19
going to jump over to social now and see who's joining us so we can see that sabage is here hi saage he is a regular
26:27
LEL panelist so it's lovely to see him in the audience and he's joining us from Singapore today um we've got uh ncot uh
26:35
sorry I'm trying to pronounce that n nisak from Hall in the UK wonderful to
26:41
see you here thank you for joining it's lovely to see so many people from around
26:46
the world joining these shows and CA from London wonderful to see you um I
26:53
think you've joined to a couple of our shows before so it's nice to to see you back in the audience
26:59
today Adana shall we take our next question of course so our next question
How can a change leader measure the success of a change initiative?
27:07
comes from Louisa Clark and she wants to know how can a change leader measure the
27:12
success of a change initiative oh fantastic question uh
27:17
we'll go to Natalia on this please thank you uh I would uh I would
27:25
say this through purposeful mindset and elevated energy what does it mean so
27:30
when we begin the change initiative it's important to create a sense of individual selfworth for all those
27:37
involved in uh in the change and to ensure that people uh understand the the
27:43
value they bring at all levels of the organizations and through throughout the
27:49
change uh process it's very important to maintain that elevated energy and uh
27:56
really celebrating uh visible achievements and the actual increments
28:03
so celebrating successes as well as I as well as paying attention to also all the
28:09
lessons learned to be able to integrate them in necessary in the ongoing change
28:15
initiative or certainly uh understand how everybody grows from those uh from
28:22
those lessons and that would would really help uh um measure change
28:27
through those processes and have everybody involved through the purposeful mindset what a fantastic
28:35
answer thank you so much and Robert if you could jump in now I'd like to offer a super structured
28:43
answer and I'm going to lean on my favorite change management framework
28:48
adcar measuring the success could be did I achieve 100% awareness of the
28:56
initiative among stakeholders did I reach 100% desire did I reach 100%
29:02
knowledge ability reinforcement because I I think a key responsibility of change
29:08
leaders is to minimize uh leadership voids and communication uh you want to minimize
29:15
communication gaps so I'll offer that as a super structured answer leveraging the
29:20
Adar framework perfect thank you so much and beev um I was going to jump in and and
29:28
talk as well around some of the tools that um you can use and um I've used Adar and I but I use many many tools and
29:35
that car is is one of those to help supplement um some of the measures so
29:40
you know we do changes because we're trying to achieve an outcome for the organization so it's an increase in
29:46
sales more efficiencies you know save money whatever it might be um and we need to make sure that we understand
29:53
what that might look like once it's actually into the organization so you
29:58
know what are those hard measures that we need to um to track along um and then
30:05
what are those um more intangible ones you you know which is very much around that engagement piece and and the um
30:13
desire to to engage um and you know that there there little things that you can
30:18
do to measure the changes as you're going along little slido things um you
30:23
know the feedback elements the actual making sure that the changes are made um
30:29
through the operations not just um from Goodwill for people because when we're
30:34
all you know I don't want to sound negative here but when we've got a high level of energy and positive you know
30:40
and we're feeling really great about it how do we actually then it's very hard to stay high and energized day in day out when you've got work coming at you
30:46
and changes coming at you all the time so you know finding little ways that we
30:52
can just sort of make sure that these little steps that we're taking and that we're measuring for our success and
30:57
we're achieving that we don't slip back because it gets too hard some days so just finding some of those those Mees me
31:04
sorry those measures that are hard and um intangible and and just balance them
31:12
and just keep momentum going at a at a pace that works for everyone wonderful
31:17
thank you so much and Jessica yeah excuse me um I like to
31:23
think about measuring the success of an initiative in two different ways one being at the individual level one being
31:29
at the organization level Ro Robert brought up Adar um I use a methodology or a framework uh called Art aware ready
31:36
train so having those checkpoints of awareness are stakeholders ready for the
31:41
change are they trained are they do they know how to successfully change and then I think about at the organization level
31:48
you know adoption is a big piece so the framework that I use is called super it's satisfaction utilization being that
31:54
adoption piece proficiency being how um are they doing you know what they need
31:59
to do correctly uh engagement is e and then R stands for resilience or results
32:05
and that gets to the business outcomes that Bev was mentioning so those are a big piece of you know was this
32:11
successful the key too is sustainment have your stakeholders continued on in
32:16
the new ways of working and behaving because change that isn't sustained is not valuable to an
32:22
organization wonderful thank you so much that was really helpful and Mark if you would like to jump in
32:29
here jumping off of Jess's answer that was talking about training I'm going to
32:35
give it a different spin um when you go through organizational change as a person then you start thinking
32:42
differently and acting differently that's what you eventually want to accomplish um what what I always find
32:48
fascinating to see is when people that are going through these changes when they become teachers and help others uh
32:55
going through these uh these changes is in other words um that teaching element
33:00
is also the highest level of understanding you know what the change is all about and when you see them
33:06
helping others by teaching them as in this is uh you know what works what doesn't work this is what I went through
33:13
uh in other words be be the teacher becoming teacher is to me is a great measure of success in other words uh
33:21
this change is now you know becoming part of people's way of thinking and acting absolutely fantastic thank you so
33:28
much Mark and um Lori did you want to jump in this or have we answered it all
33:35
already yeah so I certainly feel like my response was really covered in particular by Jessica it's really for me
33:41
having those two perspectiv so the original business perspective the business case what was the benefit what
33:47
was the intended business outcome measuring from that perspective as well as the delivery or the change anger
33:53
perspective what was the experience for for the people the human beings who had to deliver and make the transition themselves at an individual level
34:01
fantastic thank you so much for jumping in there and we have got we are halfway through the show so get your questions
34:07
in now so that we can get you some answers from all of these fantastic experts on the panel today Adriana would
34:14
you provide us next question please sure our next question comes from
Who exactly is a change leader, and why is this role important in organisations?
34:20
prep Prem Kumar and the question is who exactly is a chain leader and why is
34:26
this Ro important in organizations fantastic question Prem thank you so much Natalia will'll go to
34:33
you first and then Lori thank you so a change leader is a
34:38
critical figure in an organization because it allows organizational ability to adapt grow Thrive and uh make
34:47
progress in a dynamic business environment and it's an essential role because change leaders help manage The
34:54
Human Side of change uring that people are engaged motivated and equipped to
35:00
embrace new ways of working and Achieve organizational goals so a skilled change
35:06
leader a passionate change leader can really make a a significant difference between a successful change initiative
35:13
and one that falls short for its objective so I think the previous ideas
35:19
we've shared certainly will will help uh those listening to maximize their impact
35:24
in their respective roles absolutely thank you so much that was a great answer and Lori if we could take your
35:31
answer on this please yeah completely agree with Natalia and I would add it's anybody in
35:38
an organization who's a good listener so anybody who themsel allows themsel to be
35:43
changed by others by listening and empathizing and understanding but also
35:49
has a desire to make better to do things better so even at that micro level everybody to some level is a change
35:56
leader as much as they're listening and having a desire to do things better wonderful thank you so much and Jessica
36:03
if you could jump in now sure laori you took the words out of my mouth in terms
36:08
of anyone can be a change leader based on the you know the the criteria you just outlined and at the same time there
36:15
is value in having someone or a team of people that are focused on enabling the
36:21
individuals in the organ organization that Human Side people side of change I like to think about a boat will Sail
36:28
Without a captain but the importance of having someone who is a captain sets the tone they model the responsibilities
36:36
they set the objectives they bring in some of that discipline that Robert mentioned earlier so yes anyone and
36:42
everyone has that potential to be a change leader but when there is something that is happening in the organization where people need to change
36:48
their behaviors it's really important to have a few people at least one person that is focused on the people side of
36:55
change absolutely fantastic thank you so much and Robert do you want to jump
37:00
in two terms trust and relevance change leaders help organizations and
37:06
individuals trust each other and be relevant um environments that have low
37:12
trust and low relevance are rudderless to use Jess's boat analogy um yeah I'll
37:20
leave it at that trust relevance wonderful thank you so much
37:25
they were great answers on this so fantastic Adriana should we take the next
What qualifications are essential to being an effective Change Leader or Agent?
37:31
question of course we have a Live question next coming from Jo and the question is what qualifications are
37:37
essential to being an effective chain leader or agent fantastic question Joyce thank you
37:44
so much and who should we go to next who would like to answer have you stomped
37:49
our panel for today okay we'll go to Robert first of all then
37:55
Lori I'll I'll give give a a very narrow answer uh that's a certification I'm
38:02
aware of uh and there might be there probably are multiple certifications the
38:07
certification that I'm aware of is called a ccmp a certified change management professional so that's a very
38:13
academic very strict answer um wonderful thank you so much and we'll
38:21
go to uh Beth please I was um was thinking something
38:27
completely different because I was thinking of like for me the ccmp um certainly helps you with your leadership
38:34
but it um helps you with understanding a lot around the change um and I was
38:39
thinking about all the different things I've learned and the courses I might have been on um and I don't know if
38:46
there's actually been anyone in particular um you know I can think of
38:51
things like in Australia we have the Frontline manager so
38:57
certification um and that teaches you a lot of the basics from you know how to
39:02
manage and from being able to manage how to actually then um uh think uh
39:09
conceptually and um you know provide some of those skills that we've talked about around the consistency and and
39:16
things and um and then you know doing some of those uh assessments like your
39:21
your disk profiles um um having the opportunities
39:27
to to work through development planning like I I I just think there's so many different things you can learn no matter
39:35
what um course you're doing whether it's a a two-hour master class in something
39:41
or you know your MBA you're going to learn lots of different things and you're going to find something in
39:47
everything that you do so I think it really comes down to where you are in your own um development and the options
39:54
available to you and where you think that you might want to start to build some of those um those skill skills and
40:00
then you might find a qualif qualification that actually helps you with any of those gaps that you've
40:05
identified fantastic thank you so much and Jessica yeah B and Robert said it um
40:13
perfectly it really depends on the role that you are in and the role that you want to be in so if some roles require
40:21
having a change management certification so going out and pursuing those there are there are several um but some roles
40:29
uh you know you could be a project manager you could be a business relationship manager you could be an operations or strategy having a change
40:35
management certification will serve you because it has that training but I like what Bev brought in in terms of
40:41
understanding yourself and that self-awareness piece through um assessments that you can take dis is one
40:46
you know there's Meers Briggs there's uh you know performance indicator so there's a lot of different ways to do
40:51
that self check but in terms of the specific qualifications I really think it depends on the role that you're
40:57
pursuing and seeing you know what does that job description and profile look like because not every role is going to
41:02
require having a change management certification I would still plug that it's a great a great thing to learn um
41:09
in any leadership uh role fantastic thank you so much and
41:14
Natalia yes thank you and I want to emphasize on the key word of this in this question it's effective change
41:20
leader so uh when talking about effective of course uh specific
41:26
Frameworks related to change management are essential to to to just to to have the structure around it but uh to add to
41:34
it and again depending on the role but I think it's an added value overall a business relationship management
41:40
professional uh certification would be highly recommended because again it also
41:47
provides a lot of valuable um information on how to build that
41:53
capability of business relationship management uh as a change leaders are
41:58
involved with the team with the various teams with and need to apply a holistic
42:04
approach to maximize that Effectiveness so uh really those components and the
42:11
and the um capabilities learned throughout this uh certification really
42:16
helpful and also I want to add about resilience uh resilience certification is also an important to prepare to be
42:22
prepared for the unknown unknowns and be able to quickly adapt uh those two I
42:28
would recommend fantastic thank you so much that's a great recommendation as well by the way Lori if you'd like to
42:35
jump in now um well I agree with everything that
42:41
the other panelists have said so far and I would disagree that there's any qualifications that are essential and
42:47
and I would agree with the other panelists that it really depends on the role and what your own sort of gaps are
42:52
in your own capability certainly for me I can talk about my experience for me I I did I studied organizational behavior
43:00
in an MBA which I found fascinating gave me all sorts of models in which to conceptualize things but it really
43:06
didn't help me be an effective change leader what really helped me was a um I
43:11
did a a master practitioner course on neural linguistic programming and it was very experiential and and that's the
43:18
nature of change management it's it's got a lot of nuances it's about understanding people and a lot of the
43:24
the subtleties and sensitivities so for me from an engineering sort of background I found uh you know the
43:30
experiential type courses like neural linguistic programming really transformative for me as a person but
43:37
also as a change leader fantastic thank you so much and Bev do you want to jump
43:42
in yeah I just wanted to sort of um just add add on as everyone was um sharing
43:48
their insights um I think there's let's not confuse or let's just understand the
43:53
differences between when we talk about being an effective change leader um
43:59
compared to being an effective change manager or practitioner because um
44:05
leadership is a as a Skool that is something you can acquire for no matter what work you're doing change management
44:13
um like particularly when you start talking about some of the um like the ccmp and um other other types of um
44:21
programs is is really around giving you the basis from a change management perspective but if you were going to seek a
44:28
qualification so that you've got an understanding of what change leadership looks like and what the field of change
44:33
talks about as well as how to I actually put some of that into practice then obviously you shouldn't go past the apmg
44:39
change management foundation and pratitioner course um because that's you know I personally use that one as the
44:46
basis for for anyone that I'm talking to for those skills um and that and and our
44:52
program is then based off of the change management institutes change management M um body of knowledge and that's a
44:59
really good starting point it's a competency framework and it gives you all sorts of insights of the types of
45:04
things that occur around that are wrap around the change Management Field and the different competencies that actually
45:12
um sit sit within that and so you can sort of start to break it down you know do I actually to Be an Effective change
45:18
leader what are some of these things that I might need um and I like the word that Jessica used about the power um
45:24
competencies as opposed to the the softt the soft skills so um looking at you
45:29
know what is it that I want to do and then finding the qualification to fit that and do you actually need it or not
45:36
if you're going to go into the change Management Field then it gives you a lot of credibility if you do have a
45:41
something a little bit more formal behind you fantastic thank you so much and Jessica do you want to finish us off
45:48
on this question sure yeah I Bev's clarification of of leadership and
45:54
change management and if you're going into that field is really important I do like how Lori brought up that you don't
46:00
necessarily have to have qualifications and Natalia mentioned resilience sometimes being effective takes time so
46:06
it does come through experience and getting feedback from your uh peers and
46:12
superiors and the people that are working for you in order to become more effective and incorporating that and
46:18
that is also how you develop resilience you get those you know the feedback that sometimes stings a little bit it's
46:24
recognizing hey is something I can work on and I can move forward and go through this and that actually models the way
46:30
forward for your team to be more resilient and feel forward and uh you know in the same way
46:36
so fantastic continuous Improvement is absolutely essential isn't it so
46:42
fantastic answers panelist thank you so much and Adriana can we take our final question for today
46:49
please of course our final question is another Live question from Jenny and she
I presume in large companies (or companies that recognise the value) this can be a specific role; have you all worked as dedicated change managers/leaders?
46:55
wants to know I presume in large companies or companies that recognize the value this can be a specific role
47:02
have you all worked as dedicated chains managers or leaders what a fantastic question Jenny
47:09
thank you so much do you know what I think we're going to work our way around the panel for this question if you're all okay with that so we'll start with
47:16
Robert and then Lori sure um so yes I believe in larger
47:24
companies where where generally roles are more narrow smaller companies you you're more
47:31
prone to wearing many hats larger companies you will wear fewer hats on average I believe I have worked as a
47:39
dedicated change manager when at my previous employer a team of a dozen
47:44
change managers were all laid off at the time I was mid project I had my I was
47:49
serving as project manager my change manager disappeared I inherited his work
47:56
so I joked that instead of the Lexus of change management I became the Toyota
48:01
with all due respect to Toyota owners uh so um I think a lot of us um Can
48:08
accidentally weave or find ourselves um in this change
48:14
leader um change manager and I don't mean to you know blur the lines there
48:20
too much um but I think often times serving in a role formally or with the
48:26
can be somewhat accidental perfect thank you so much and
48:32
we will go to uh L next
48:38
please uh yeah great question Jenny and and I do agree that in particular the
48:43
large companies the value is is recognized and it uh it becomes a specific role with um and that's
48:49
continuing to increase as the level of change and the level of complexity of some of the challenges that we're
48:54
dealing with continues to increase so for me I've never actually worked in a as a change manager per se but I was on
49:01
a mega project involving a very large um complex change initiative that very much
49:08
had a very strong change ma management element and I was very fortunate that at
49:13
the exact same time this uh this this project was happening there was also a culture change initiative within the
49:19
organization it was led by organizational psychologists in the HR department so I became the change
49:26
champion for our program for the broader culture change initiative and it was uh
49:31
yeah one of the most most extraordinary experiences of my career so the amount I picked up and our ability to transform
49:39
systems processes and people was you know far greater than anything that I'd experienced ever ever before so
49:45
certainly haven't been a change manager have been a change champion and been very fortunate to learn from some people
49:51
who were some very skillful change leaders who really enabled our project to go through much more leanly and much
49:58
more effectively than it would have otherwise perfect sounds great thank you so much Lori and
50:06
beev um definitely that's um been my bread and butter for for quite a period
50:11
of time um and I've worked on anything from from what's perceived as uh simple
50:18
easy change which quite often is the opposite uh through to very complex transformation programs merges and
50:25
Acquisitions um and anything and everything in between um and what I can
50:30
say is that it really does depend on the organization yes bigger organizations might have more of a budgeting and and
50:37
more of awareness potentially of uh why they the importance of change and why
50:43
they might need dedicated change focused resources um not always strictly true
50:48
and um noticed that when money gets tight quite often the change or the training elements within um projects
50:55
particularly get get shut down um and with projects you quite often see that
51:01
the the product is delivered into the organization you know the Go the whole big go live and and then the project
51:07
moves into its transition out and quite often the change um resources are
51:12
transitioned out at the same time but as we know change actually occurs um when people are then asked to actually adopt
51:19
that change that's when change occurs so um but not big not all big organizations
51:25
at actually have changed people in there because it really does come down to the maturity of the senior leadership and to
51:31
what their expectations are so if you're looking for change roles
51:36
um they can be C called lots of things in organizations um the main thing is to
51:42
ask what's expected what are you what are you delivering what's your outcomes and what attributes do you need to be
51:47
successful in the role um and go from there fantastic thank you so much Bev
51:53
and Mark well take a hard look at the question uh
51:58
from Jenny uh where she states it's it's something just for large companies I'm
52:04
thinking she thinking of uh change managers um but if I go back to the uh
52:09
show the title of our show today change leaders I think I mean I needed in every
52:15
size of every company um it's not just uh you know something that only large companies need um but again that's an
52:22
academic answer um if I'm looking at you know going back in my career as far as
52:28
being a leader change leader um having been involved in many cultural changes
52:34
you know being the one that empowers educates uh earns the trust of people
52:41
that that to me is as in and the most rewarding that comes from this um again
52:46
when you see people that pick up on that energy and pick up on those new ways of
52:52
thinking acting that to me is something that any leader should take on and it's
52:57
not just for large companies thank you so much Mark that was a great answer thank you
53:03
Natalia yes to answer and share my experience yes as a transformational leader I have been involved in uh also
53:11
Global transformation projects as a change Management Consultant and uh I have contributed
53:18
also had an opportunity to contribute to delivery of an effective transformation
53:24
initiative IES and yes large organizations uh from my experience do
53:29
appreciate and this role and value this role as um different um uh stakeholders
53:37
and different contributors to the project they have their specific skills uh often technical skills and
53:44
communication skills are also one key attribute of a effective change leader
53:49
and if you have those if you are well aware how to use uh communication tools approach coaches and adopt them for for
53:56
Effective delivery certainly that that is a specific role it's it's a it's a
54:03
full-time role in the project especially a big one in the company and and therefore uh it it plays an important
54:10
role and valued by organizations that's from my experience thank you so much
54:16
that was a great insight and Jessica would you like to finish this question for me sure and I'm going to answer
54:22
Jenny's question backwards by starting with yes I have been a change manager uh
54:28
more than a decade ago I was hired into an organization to do change management specifically and then I stayed in that
54:35
organization went into many different roles and used my change management skills in those roles now as a change
54:43
Management Consultant having worked with many large billion dollar companies I can say that it really does come down to
54:50
value and not necessarily resources so Bev mentioned the maturity of the leaders in the organization and I will
54:58
reinforce that message um yes large companies may have the ability to hire
55:04
and retain a full-time change management person or invest in training change
55:09
leaders across the organization but whether or not change management change leadership is embraced and becomes part
55:16
of the ways of operating the cultural norms really depends on the uh the
55:22
executives the leaders the the managers and individuals within within that company so um it's it's a diverse
55:30
opportunity I'll say that to be a change leader thank you so much they were great
55:36
answers panel and it was wonderful to hear your experience as change managers and leaders um so shall we move over to
Closing thoughts
55:43
our final remarks we'll start with Robert and we'll just go around and uh yeah if we'll start with you
55:51
Robert my favorite definition of Change Change leadership is from uh a
56:00
family member of the the the company Motorola his name is Chris Galvin and
56:05
his definition of change leadership for us was taking a person from point A to point B for their benefit where
56:14
otherwise they might not have gone and so I I love the um the ambiguity the
56:21
delicious ambiguity in the title of today uh about change leadership and I admire my
56:28
fellow panelists for the diverse ways we interpreted different directions we went
56:33
and I I think it's one of the most exciting places to be in a company in a in a team in an ensemble and so I hope
56:40
our our audience um appreciates and aspires to being who their teams need
56:47
them to be uh servant leaders and and uh relishing each opportunity they have to
56:54
bring teams companies and customers uh to a better place fantastic thank you so much and
57:03
Lori thank you again and thank you fellow panelists I learned so much uh from you all and thank you viewers for
57:10
your your excellent excellent questions um but for me there's no better topic to
57:15
talk about really you look at some of the challenges we're dealing with on a global scale let alone individual
57:21
projects the the level of change that's happening around the world the eration of Technology some of the climate
57:27
challenges some of the the conflicts that are bubbling up there's never never been a better time to become more
57:33
capable more Adept at dealing with change and and supporting people to navigate through that change so thank
57:38
you thank you for the opportunity to talk about such an important topic and thank you for coming on the show Lori
57:44
it's always so wonderful to have you here and Bev if we could have your closing remarks
57:49
please sure um I concur I think it's been a lovely session and I think it's
57:55
one that we could probably talk many times over um I think my passing my my final remarks are really around um you
58:02
know how do you become a change leader and I thought I'd just give you some of my insights of some simple things that
58:07
you can do regardless of what your role and position is in an organization and your aspirations but um Step Up you know
58:16
own where you want to go and and have a little bit of confidence and and look for those opportunities where you can
58:22
proactively within your own skill and not not um not put yourself out too far
58:27
out of the comfort zone but step up and step into something where you can actually start to demonstrate some of
58:32
your own skill um energize others you know that energy and power and um um it
58:39
it just creates a really great Vibe and and people will naturally um um look for
58:45
and and engage with with energy um remember that we're humans and humans
58:51
like to connect so um look at how you can connect with others and keep
58:56
connected with people those little things around I just want to check in um that that just shows natural leadership
59:02
and Care um and my last comment is that leader leadership is around you're
59:09
serving you're serving others and you're assisting others to grow you grow yourself through those interactions but
59:16
um you know just have that little bit of a I'm I'm serving someone I don't expect anything from it except for the
59:23
intrinsic joy of seeing someone actually grow into their potential thank you that was so lovely
59:30
beev thank you great answers um and mark thank you Chenise uh great great
59:37
questions by the way Adriana thank you for uh presenting those to us and uh wonderful answers I think another very
59:44
informational episode worthwhile uh looking at it and uh watching it again and again um since we all know change is
59:52
a constant I'd like to um mentioned a a very short quote from Jack Welsh who
59:58
once said change before you have to wonderful quote mark thank you so
1:00:05
much and it's always so wonderful to have you on the show so thank you uh Natalia yes thank you and uh really to
1:00:13
add to Mark's quote from Jack Wells yes it's
1:00:18
really change begins within you so we need to be proactive curious identifying
1:00:24
what what's next and really uh with the right mindset and tools we can make that
1:00:29
lasting impact so I really uh want to remind audience that uh to just go out
1:00:36
there lead with purpose be the change you want to see in the world and keep its inspiring keep innovating and keep
1:00:42
leading the way uh leading by example and uh that would make you stay
1:00:49
continuously stay motivated and and resilient and keep keep leading the change thank you for this discussion it
1:00:55
was a privilege to share experience and also learn valuable insights from the fellow panelists and thank you so much
1:01:02
for coming on the show today it's been so lovely to have you here and your insights thank you and
1:01:09
Jessica yes thank you um very much for having me on the panel thank you to the other panelists in apmg for hosting this
1:01:15
really important conversation I'll just leave it with one question you know when you think about what it does it mean to
1:01:21
Be an Effective change leader ask yourself am I the type of leader that I would want to follow and maybe that's
1:01:26
your your North Star your starting point for you know where you need to go and what skills you need to further develop
1:01:32
and enhance and and let that take you you know on your on your own personal change Journey so wonderful thank you so
1:01:40
much Jessica it's been lovely having you on the show today and Adriana what a what a great show e how did um how did
1:01:46
you think today went I think it was amazing I agree with Mar we had such amazing questions and
1:01:53
even better answers from all of our panelists me personally I have learned a lot listening to all of you so I hope
1:01:59
the audience also learned a lot thank you so much and I'd like to thank you our producers for your excellent
1:02:05
questions today great job and watch out for your name in the credits and don't forget that you can listen to the audio
1:02:13
versions of the show on your preferred podcast platform um we have some great
1:02:18
shows coming up in the next couple of days on Monday the 30th of October we
The Next APMG Level Up Show
1:02:24
will be looking at how to build engagement with stakeholders and on Wednesday the 1st of November at 4:00
1:02:32
BST validated research findings on the hath double method which is a webinar
1:02:38
and Friday the 3rd of November at 2 o'clock we will be looking at how to
1:02:43
become a project manager so thank you for tuning in to the show and we will
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